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Hello again, Middlegear's men, women, everyone in between. Welcome back to the show. Coming at you

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from the top to let you know that we have a very special interview episode today, not only with

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friend of the show Ryan Payton, for I think the third time. Ryan has also brought us Kazama Jnuchy.

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You know him of course from Portable Ops, from Peace Walker, from Middlegear Solid 4,

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from Ghost in the Shell, from Halo. He's done lots of great work and he has so kindly brought some

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of the stories from his days with Middlegear Solid to us. So without any further ado, I bring you

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Ryan Payton and Kazama Jnuchy.

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All right, we are here with Ryan Payton once again. Welcome back Ryan.

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Thank you.

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With him, he's brought Mr. Kazama Jnuchy. We want to give a very warm welcome to you,

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sir. Thank you so much for joining us on the show.

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Well, thank you for having me on the show.

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Absolutely. So for those of you who aren't familiar, Kazama has been credited with

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just lots of Middlegear work. We just talked before starting the recording.

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It was in this order, correct me if I'm wrong, Portable Ops, Middlegear Solid 4, and then Peace

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Walker. And then I don't know if it's okay to mention that Middlegear Rising was almost a thing.

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Almost, yeah.

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But yes, among many other things, these of course are just Metalgear titles, but

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we might hopefully get into some of the other work you've done within the remainder of the episode.

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Sounds good.

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With that in mind, if I could start us back at the beginning,

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Kazama, what was your first composing gig ever?

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Oh, first composing gig ever. This includes everything, right? Even outside of video.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah, so my very first gig was when I was in music college in Boston, that I got to write.

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There was a production music library company based in Japan, and they were looking for a

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composer who can write in the style of jazz fusion. And then they were providing tracks for

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shopping channel and a lot of TV shows like that. So I thought I was in jazz school, so I thought it

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was a great beginning. And then so I wrote about, I think, 10 pieces of music and then just sent them.

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And I think those pieces are still getting used on TV once in a while.

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Oh, that's cool.

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Yeah, so I still keep that relationship with that company. So occasionally I get a call from them

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and I still write jazz fusion music for them. So that's so excellent.

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Which is very different from what I do for video games on a daily basis.

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Sure. I do think it's really interesting and it makes sense actually that jazz fusion was kind

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of where you started because in metal gear in general, I feel like there are some jazzy undertones

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in a lot of the music and especially in portable ops listening to the soundtrack. Just, I mean,

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you can't help but groove a little bit to it. I for one, I'm very happy that it has that tone. So

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yeah, I'm glad you got your start in jazz fusion. That's pretty excellent.

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Right. The jazz element in metal gear really comes from Noriko Hibino, who's been with the

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studio before me. And he had a lot of jazz elements embedded in his piece and that sort of became the

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foundation of use of that style. And I joined the team after he left. And then I played all of the

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game he worked on. So I kind of took the idea from there too. That's awesome. Yeah, just keeping

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that tone and that theme kind of alive. I mean, that really helps make the games what they were.

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Obviously, you're here with us during our portable ops season. And I think one of the things I think

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about the most when talking about this game is the feeling that the music gives, especially when

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you're sneaking through a really tense area. Right. Yeah, that was quite a challenge when I first

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joined the studio because I've never written those in those style before joining the studio.

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And there was lots of experienced in-house composers around me. So I learned a lot from them

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to how to write. And also pulling inspiration from your favorite fusion band Yellow Jackets.

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Yeah, that actually came from our co-host Warren. He wants to know if you still love the fusion

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band Yellow Jackets. Well, I don't listen to the band as much anymore. But yeah, I still love

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their compositions. And in my opinion, it's so well structured. And I actually have a lot of

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harmonic language influenced from them. So yeah, I still go back to their harmony theory and stuff

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like that. Sure. Yeah, I bet it feels a bit like home. Oh, yeah. So with your start and composing

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in mind, I'm just curious, did you always know that you wanted to work in video games? And if not,

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how did you find your way there? Right. So I had no idea I would end up in the video game world,

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to be honest. When I was studying music, or even when I graduated, because again, I went to jazz

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school. And my writing style back then was more acoustic band oriented, like horn sections and

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stuff like that. And there were a lot of students in the film scoring department who studied

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those orchestral electronic hybrid style. But I never went through that. So I mean,

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orchestral writing to begin with, like I felt it was very, very advanced for me. And so I never

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had thought about even getting into it when I graduated music school. And then so when I graduated

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in the first three years, I was in the band playing guitar and doing some music compositions,

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lots of music arrangements for the pop band. And that was my main thing. And so how I got into

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games is it's really a coincidence. A friend of mine who I still work together, her name is Nobuko

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Toda, who graduated the same music school in Boston at the same time. And she went straight to Konami.

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And then she worked on Metal Gear Solid 3. And after the production ended for the three,

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she gave me a call saying that, hey, our lead composer is leaving studio. And we're looking for

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someone new and hopefully someone who's a new college graduate. And I wasn't a new college graduate

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at the time. But she said, well, you're still 25. And you're kind of like a new college graduate. So

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would you be interested? She asked me that was, I clearly remember that it was on my way home,

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like around 11pm in Tokyo. And that was after I played a gig. And so I had to ask her twice that

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what did you say? And she asked me if I wanted to join the studio. And so initially I said,

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well, thanks for the offer, but I don't think I'm a good fit. That sounds like you.

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And well, I knew her music. And she's an amazing writer with lots of different styles. And

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she can do film scoring. And I was never, I've never done that before. So I told her that.

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And so I don't think I'm skilled enough to do what you just asked me. That was my first response.

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And then she insisted that, well, I like your music. I think your music is very evocative and

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very fitting for the video game world. And we can teach you all that orchestral

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electronic writing. So don't worry about the technical stuff. Just consider this offer. And

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she hung up. And so I thought about this for more over a week. And then I called her again. And

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I said, yes, I'm, I'd like to take on offer and submit demo for the process. And so that was

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my, how I was introduced to this video game world. Well, thank goodness it worked out that way.

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Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad it worked out. The, well, I had to submit the demo to the studio so that

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they can evaluate if I'm actually a good candidate. So she sent me, well, we're going to work on the

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music like this. So you need to be able to write something like this. And she sent me a

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mettergier solid three main theme by Harry Greggs and Williams. Oh, nice. And then I was, I went,

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oh my God, I can never do this. I literally had no idea how to even begin with this,

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that kind of composition. And, but I started deconstructing elements here and there. And then,

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and I wrote a five minute piece, and I sent to the studio and the response was very mixed at first.

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And I think, I think the audio director at the time didn't really like my demo, but

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the, his boss really liked what I did. That's what I heard. And so that's how I got to the

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actual interview process. And so, so the interview with the audio director was a little, little

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uncomfortable. So once in a while, but the, his boss who liked what I did, I think he saw

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some potential in the music I wrote. We had a good conversation and I left the building

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feeling that if I get in, this is going to be a pretty challenging work. And I really need to

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do hard work on this. And a few days later, I got a call and I got accepted. So,

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yeah, that, that was, that was the very beginning. And then when I, when I joined the studio back in

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2006. So if you work full time in the, in a corporate situation, that you're given a set of

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computers and sound libraries and everything you need to write music for Metal Gear. And

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okay, here you go. Go write something. And, and then I was also given a PlayStation portable dev

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kit on my desk and I was playing the game and I've never played a game that wasn't in development.

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So that was really fun. And yeah, so I played a game feeling like, well, I'm feeling that, well,

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I've never played a game without music before. And this is so interesting. And, and I'm writing

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music for this scene. And how do I start? So I started asking around and well, I have no idea

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where to begin with. And, and well, here, here's some inspiration and play, play these tracks.

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These are the previous MGF three tracks. Play, play the game listening to this and how you,

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and tell me how you feel about it. And so that, that, that became a really good reference. So,

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okay, if I write, if I use this kind of instrument and then incorporate this kind of musical movement,

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it might be fitting to this particular scene I'm scoring. And yeah, so it was a very slow

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learning process. And it probably took like, like whole portable ops production time for me

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until I get, I start to feel comfortable doing it.

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Sure, I can imagine what a daunting task that must be, especially if you hadn't,

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one worked in video games before, and, and two didn't have, well, I guess I should ask you this

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first. Had you any experience with Metal Gear before you took the job? Were you familiar with it at all?

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Well, I, my first exposure was in high school. My, my friend of mine was really, really into Metal

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Gear Solid 1. And he invited me to his place. And you got to play this game. And he showed me the

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opening cinematic. And, and I didn't have PlayStation at that time. And I was more into

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computer programming and music and position back then. So, and all my money was spent on the computer

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rather than PlayStation. And, but I vaguely remember that when I got a call, I remember that

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experience. And okay, I know it's a very cinematic game. And, and, but I, I didn't play the later,

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like MGS 2 or MGS 3. So, when I was offered to do an interview, I bought them all. I got a PlayStation 2

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and, and all of the games that was released on the console. And I played from beginning to end.

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And I also played MGS 1 as well. So, I knew the story when I took the interview. And I, I, I became a

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big fan of the story. And yeah, by the time I joined the studio, I was so excited that I, I can be part

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of the story, you know. Sure. I can't even imagine that that's excellent that you had the chance to

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get to know it before you ended up taking the job. Because like, I can only imagine what's

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extra passion that brought to the table, you know, getting to work on this thing that you

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got to enjoy beforehand. I really got it worked out that way for you.

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Oh, yeah. The, especially with the series title like that, you have to know the character and

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you have to know all the, all of the references that, for example, MGS 4 was like, like wrapping

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everything up that happened before, right? So, you have to know all these little bits and pieces

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that happened in the previous game. So, yeah, I'm glad I played them all.

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Well, excellent. You mentioned something previously about, I think, I think it was that you said,

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you were listening to certain tracks for inspiration moving forward. One of our listeners

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would love to know which games or movie scores do you take inspiration from while working on your own

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music, not necessarily for games or for other people's projects, but for you?

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Right. For the, well, it depends on the project you're working on, but in case of

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mettergear games, a lot of it was from old Harry Gerex and Williams score, a lot of Hanzimmers,

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like all media ventures, what the remote control studios used to be called.

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Those electronic, orchestral hybrid scores that was produced in like 90s and early 2000s.

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I drew a lot of inspirations from those soundtrack and like, for example, movie like The Rock or

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the one reference track that came up during MGS4 was a movie called Man on Fire.

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Ah, yes.

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Yeah. So we drew a lot of inspiration from that. Lots of subtleties, which I thought was really

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unique at the time for the video games and very, very adult. Yeah. Oh, and Spy Game and

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yeah, stuff like that. Those 90s, early 2000s tracks. And yeah, we don't use those pieces

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as a reference in the recent stuff that I worked on. But yeah, for the mettergear games, that was

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where it originally started. So that's fantastic. And I suppose that makes sense,

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you know, given that Harry Gerex and Williams worked on the games too. So yeah, first I need to

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mention that the last question I asked you about the inspiration came from Lee, one of our patrons

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and good friends of the Discord and the show. And he also asks, is there a game or movie franchise

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that you would like to compose music for in the future? Or if you had a dream project?

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Right. Well, dream project. Well, you know, like after getting to no mettergear was really the

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first series title that I really thought like I want to work on this. And so that dream sort of came

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true. Yeah. Yeah. But after having worked on a lot of the series title, I personally would love to,

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like I love the process of working on the series title because it's very different from working

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on the original IP from ground up. And I do love the effort that goes into the series title. And

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from my perspective, I've loved to work on something not necessarily the particular title,

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but something that that's trying to reboot from reboot the franchise. Yeah. Okay. Because that's

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a really unique opportunity where you can have your own voice, as well as respecting the tone of

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the franchise. I think that's that'll be interesting. Sure. And I'm sure I can enjoy

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if any franchise gig would come to me, I'm sure I'm going to enjoy. So yeah, any reboot would be

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what I look for. Yeah. Well, great. Yeah, I imagine that would pose some intriguing challenges. Like

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you mentioned before stepping into the Metal Gear series, you know, you had this, the sound that

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was already kind of built for you, but to be able to bring your own touch to it while still honoring

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what's already there, I can imagine that would be that would be a bit of a thrill to work on.

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Yeah. Like it's funny thing is every time I, no matter it's Metal Gear or Halo,

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everyone who come to me and about music inspiration says, do your own thing. I never felt

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that way. Like, well, there, there is this thing that's already established. So maybe I should

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respect that first. And then maybe sprinkle your own taste on top of it. So really do appreciate that

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people are willing to hear what I would come up. And yeah, I feel like Cosmo, that was a big part of

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Halo, Halo 4 working together on that, right? Oh yeah. It was, Halo 4 wasn't a reboot,

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obviously, given the four at the end of the title, but it was a brand new team. It was the first

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non-bungie Halo title. And we worked to get you over to Seattle from Japan. And it was the first

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Halo title not composed by Marty O'Donnell or first mainline, I should say. So in a way,

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it was something of like a kind of a reboot in a sense. And I really like what you did with the

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Halo 4 soundtrack. And that at times you're very much honoring Marty's original compositions,

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which we talked about. And I'm really happy you did that. But also, yeah, you're able to

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really just go out there and put yourself forward to give it its own mark, which you obviously did

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again on Halo 5 as well. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, Halo 4 was a pretty interesting project because

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given all of the legacy from Marty O'Donnell, and by the time I joined the studio, we had Neil

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Davies working on lots of thematic elements. And so I joined the studio as a sort of additional

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writer role. And so I had to respect both style, which ended up being a really unique blend of

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two different Halo music, right? So yeah, the Halo 4 was a big puzzle to

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solve for me. And yeah, and I'm very happy how it came out. That was very unique.

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Yeah, I can imagine. You mentioned something earlier, real quick before I move on to another

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listener question. You mentioned something about subtleties within, I think we were specifically

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regarding portable ops, but I guess maybe Metal Gear in general. And it just, it dawned on me that

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that's a very apt description, I think, for the series in general. Just in that,

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Hideo Kojima really subverted a lot of expectations. And just about every

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aspect of game development, I suppose. Did you keep that in mind while working on Metal Gear?

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Well, in the beginning of Metal Gear production, at least back when I was there in the studio,

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he would often leave a piece of DVD or CD that he listens to on the music lease desk.

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Once you get that, you're supposed to check that out. And I think Man on Fire was one of those.

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And once we are given those material as a reference, we pretty much need to stick to that

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as much as possible. But we obviously need to develop on it so that we do end up having different

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styles in the end. But the initial process is that it needs to be very true to the reference

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material you're given. And then once you establish your own way of making that sound,

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I think that's around the time when you start to expand musically and get given the scene you're

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scoring to. So there is a very clear direction that comes from Hideo Kojima every time.

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So we've been talking a lot about honoring the themes and the tones and the music that was set

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there before you stepped in. Again, Lee, our friend on the Discord wants to know, has there ever been

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a time with a director or I guess a developer where you had a disagreement about what you wanted to

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do musically? And if so, were you able to resolve that in a pretty peaceful way? I guess.

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In my opinion, it always needs to be a peaceful resolution. Sure, absolutely.

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When you think about your position in the production, obviously the director has wider

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view of what's happening. And we focus on the very granular material musically. And sometimes we do

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get lost. So I think it's a very refreshing to have that disagreement. And then usually you

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notice something you didn't notice before. And that usually becomes a really good inspiration.

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So in my opinion, I think I should better listen to that rather than insisting my own view of my

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own narrow view of the project. Sure, that's a great answer. If I find whatever the idea that

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was presented is wrong, I should first try and then determine how that's not appropriate.

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And then I think at that point, it's my responsibility to explain that to the director.

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Have you had a lot of instances like that or has it been mostly pretty smooth rolling?

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In case of Metal Gear, I was the bottom end of the hierarchy in terms of a theme structure. So

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it was always my boss presenting the music to the director. So not a lot of chance for you to

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disagree. Every time he comes back from the review, well, here's the note. Just finish these tasks

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and then move on. But working on Halo games, which I had a lot of opportunity talking to

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executive producers, directors. Luckily, Halo franchise has been very smooth for me. They

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seem to like what I did. And we always had a very constructive conversation. So

[00:28:18]
Speaking of experiences differing between movies and video games, another listener and friend

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in our Discord, Alex H, would like to know, were there any differences in your approach to composing

[00:28:32]
for a video game movie like Detective Pikachu as opposed to a video game in general?

[00:28:39]
Well, it is a very, very different process. And well, the big difference is the technical

[00:28:49]
aspect of scoring two different mediums. Video games, very program oriented implementation. And

[00:28:58]
film is purely music editing and how we score frame by frame literary. And

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so technically, there is a big difference. But musically speaking, I think there are

[00:29:22]
similarities where where to respect the franchise and where to be original. That aspect is

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it's always a balance. So the ratio might be different based on the project. But

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the fact that you do need to have established a certain balance that's right for the title you're

[00:29:47]
working on, I think that aspect is the same. Just the technical approach is different.

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Yeah. Okay. Are you more interested in working with movies or video games? Or is it is it pretty

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much a mixed bag for you? I do like working both, working on both, to be honest. There are

[00:30:08]
our video game scores always always interesting given the technology we get to deal with. And then

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plus, since I in the last 15 years, I became I feel like I became very fluent in working in

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the video game world. And I really do enjoy the process of crafting the music for the video game.

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And and then I love seeing the product come together and and have a cohesive feel. You know,

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like music is usually I think music is a glue to every elements of the game, you know, like little

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character movement to like environment, everything like once, well, this is just how I feel about

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it. But once you have music in like, it feels like everything connects. So I really like, like,

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when you start feeling, feeling the what the space is supposed to be like and or like, yeah,

[00:31:20]
like when you feel the air through music or like even a smell or I like that gluing process for the

[00:31:30]
video game. That's a great way to put it. And now that you mentioned that, I'm not sure I've

[00:31:37]
ever really considered this, but I can't imagine what kind of a series Metal Gear would be without

[00:31:44]
without this brand of music and this brand of I guess, audio design as well. But the composing,

[00:31:52]
it's just the composition is so unique to this series. And like we were talking about earlier,

[00:31:59]
there's these little subtleties that just where most video games want to be bombastic and loud and

[00:32:06]
you know, really get you hyped up. I just really appreciate and value the atmosphere,

[00:32:13]
like you were saying that that the music in this series happens to create. It was it ended up in

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once I got used to writing those ambient music, it became really fun working on it too.

[00:32:26]
At first, like, well, there has to be almost like no music, but you have to write music.

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I can't imagine how you start with a blank slate.

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And well, just my boss used to say, just give it some like atmospheric pad and see how that sounds

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to you. And I said, that's like cheating. I can well just try it. And but a lot of the idea and a

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lot of education, I should say, came from listening to Harry Grickson Williams score.

[00:33:08]
Even those subtle moments is so well crafted. And I could I was just in the studio for hours

[00:33:16]
just to analyze his his delivery. And I was really fortunate to be able to do that to the

[00:33:24]
studying process when I was at economy. And it paid off. I mean, you know, before before I

[00:33:34]
really found this show, I, you know, big fan of Metal Gear, but didn't really know a lot of the

[00:33:40]
specifics of how it was made. And I mean, that's that's kind of the idea of why we're bringing

[00:33:45]
you on. I think a lot of people are in that boat. I never would have guessed which games were composed

[00:33:52]
by different composers, because all of that time you spent studying Harry Grickson Williams work,

[00:34:01]
it clearly shows that it's so cohesive from one game to the next. In my opinion, it sounds like

[00:34:08]
it very much could have been by the same composer. So mad props to you for that.

[00:34:12]
Yeah, it's really how the studio structured the process. And yeah, glad I was I was able to contribute.

[00:34:26]
All right, well, let's see here. I've got another question from Warren. You've mentioned in previous

[00:34:33]
interviews that when you compose, there comes a moment when you think that's it with the music

[00:34:38]
you're composing. And that's when you know you've done a good job. Is that something that came out

[00:34:42]
earlier in your career? And Warren wants to know specifically, was it working with Peeus, Walker,

[00:34:48]
or Halo? Right. The first time I felt that was, I guess it was a matter you're solid for. And

[00:34:57]
okay, it was it took quite a long time for me to really get used to the idea of

[00:35:05]
scoring video games and writing in that orchestral hybrid, electronic hybrid style. But

[00:35:15]
plus scoring to the visual. And there was a moment in Metagir solid for where

[00:35:26]
you take off on the Metagir Rex, and you walk your way out of the corridor on Metagir. And

[00:35:36]
the cinematic right before that game moment, where you have to leave Naomi and

[00:35:46]
so that I really like something clicked when I was writing that scene. And

[00:35:53]
that probably was the first that's it moment for me working on video game. And

[00:36:00]
and I knew that was going to be a great scene. I knew it was going to be approved.

[00:36:07]
Yeah, yeah. Nice. Yeah, that was really a satisfying moment. And so by the time I got to

[00:36:17]
work on Peace Walker, at that point, I had several options. I was able to present several options.

[00:36:25]
Before that, there was not so much option that I could come up with. So I was trying barely trying

[00:36:32]
to keep up. But by the time I worked on Peace Walker, I was able to say, Well, here's one way to

[00:36:42]
score the scene. And if you don't like this idea, we can turn this around and then come up with

[00:36:48]
something completely different, which both of which I can be proud of. So I yeah, Peace Walker

[00:36:57]
was in that regard, I really enjoyed working on Peace Walker and

[00:37:04]
feeling feeling that I knew how this game exactly how this game should sound like.

[00:37:11]
And for Halo games, well, the Halo four was my first Halo, and it was really

[00:37:18]
unique situation. I joined the studio a little less than a year before shipping.

[00:37:26]
So by the time I joined the studio, someone came up to me and said, Well, we have this

[00:37:34]
milestone called called OIO. Like, do you know what that is? And I don't know. It's called one

[00:37:39]
year out. And it's due about in about a month. And then all the executives are going to decide

[00:37:49]
if we are actually shipping this game. Like, I was like, really, I just moved here.

[00:37:54]
And, oh, my gosh. And then we have some music from Neil Davidge, which was fantastic. And

[00:38:02]
and then I knew we had a milestone within the month. So I like learning how to be done really

[00:38:14]
quickly for me. And I think my experience from working on MGS really, really paid off and how

[00:38:23]
to pull idea from where. And so I think that working on Metal Gear was a really good training.

[00:38:30]
So when I score the video game, I know what at least what works and what doesn't.

[00:38:36]
So by the time you got to Halo, were you familiar with the games enough or or watching any of the

[00:38:42]
cutscenes enough, I guess, to have any of those kinds of those aha moments with with the game as

[00:38:49]
well? Well, there are. Well, the Halo four is a very emotional story. So I think that well, Master

[00:38:58]
Chief in Cortana story, especially at the end of the game is very, very emotional, which is,

[00:39:05]
in my view, it's a little different from previous Halo one through three. I mean, musically, it's

[00:39:11]
very different thing. But emotionally, I I kind of knew what to do for those emotional scenes.

[00:39:21]
Thanks to my experience working on the Metal Gear. But getting into Halo, I did the exactly

[00:39:27]
same thing. When before the interview, I played through all the Halo games. And why I knew about it.

[00:39:36]
Back in 2008, I think that the Halo three was really, really big show at Tokyo Game Show. And I

[00:39:45]
wasn't familiar with the the franchise back then. But my co worker said, Well, you should, you should

[00:39:52]
go check that out. It's a really big game from Microsoft. And there is a lot you can learn from.

[00:40:01]
Yeah, so I knew about it. And then, yeah, I played all of it before getting to the interview. And

[00:40:11]
based on my experience working on Metal Gear, I analyzed what's been done to make those Halo games.

[00:40:18]
And yeah, so that was a lot of studying again. That's great, though. You were you were quite the

[00:40:25]
prepared interview. I hope so. It's excellent. Yeah.

[00:40:31]
So one more question from our bud Lee. He wants to know, was there a noticeable difference working on

[00:40:41]
games that were for the PlayStation, whether that be handheld or or any of the generation of

[00:40:48]
PlayStation, I suppose, versus Xbox in terms of, you know, the hardware being different or a budget

[00:40:56]
or anything that might have been a constraint on your process from my perspective, when I was working

[00:41:04]
on MGS, that was between 2006 and 2011. So we were using pretty old engine. And we still used audio

[00:41:16]
engine from, I guess, the enhanced version of audio engine from Metal Gear Solid 2. So capability

[00:41:23]
was very, very different. I think hardware wise, PlayStation three, at least from audio perspective,

[00:41:31]
I mean, the music perspective hardware wise, PlayStation three and Xbox 360. From my perspective,

[00:41:38]
I didn't see that much difference. But because of the tool set was very different. We had to

[00:41:48]
come up with a very different implementation strategy. So that's between MGS four and Halo four.

[00:41:56]
And when it comes to PlayStation portable games, that's a very different story. So

[00:42:03]
we have to be able to stream the music from the memory, which was not very big. So we, every loop

[00:42:13]
was about 30 seconds long. And in case of MGS four, that was about two minutes long. So

[00:42:21]
musically approach would be very different. Like, when the music loops, you don't want to be hearing,

[00:42:26]
oh, that's the beginning of the music again. Like, you don't want to notice that. So you need to be

[00:42:31]
really clever about how you construct a looping music, especially for those shorter loops for MGS

[00:42:39]
four, because it was around two minutes long. I had less of that issue. Because if you listen to

[00:42:48]
music over, like, say, like five minutes, that like you're in trouble for a pretty long time in the

[00:42:55]
game. So yeah, that's a good point. So yeah, those were the major difference. I do just want to mention

[00:43:03]
that that that question was also asked in a similar way by Nick Freida, also a great friend of the

[00:43:11]
show and moderator of our discord. So he was asking specifically about the handheld hardware.

[00:43:18]
So thank you for elaborating on that. Similarly, I believe this is also Nick Freida's question.

[00:43:25]
He'd like to know, were there any other kinds of roadblocks that you've run into along the way,

[00:43:32]
where you had to be creative and find a workaround that might have been, I don't know,

[00:43:38]
more challenging than any of your other day to day tasks? Well, implementation is like,

[00:43:45]
it's a series of roadblocks. And every workaround is different. But let's see, the biggest one

[00:43:55]
probably is, well, this is outside of the MGS franchise. But when you have live orchestra

[00:44:05]
session coming up, and then if you don't have the scene to score, I think you're in big trouble.

[00:44:12]
And for example, this happened on Halo 5 that 10 days before the orchestra session,

[00:44:21]
I didn't have a scene to score. So I went to the producer and, hey, can I at least get a rough cut?

[00:44:31]
And so that I know what to write. And I think I texted him. And then he came to my desk,

[00:44:42]
looking really terrified. And like, what do you need? We don't have the scene ready.

[00:44:47]
Even how many days do we have? He asked. So he, well, recording session is on such and such date.

[00:44:55]
Can you give me a scene at least six days before the session? That way I have

[00:45:03]
one or two days to score. And then if something goes wrong, I can rewrite and still have my

[00:45:11]
orchestration team to prep all of the sheet music and everything. So that happened. That was a little

[00:45:19]
terrifying. But there is always a workaround. So yes, I do have some terrifying moments here and

[00:45:29]
there, probably on every production. But yeah, I'm sure, especially towards the end, when things

[00:45:36]
are starting to put together, oftentimes music is the only thing that can save a certain scene.

[00:45:44]
I totally understand that. So you just need to find a time to work on it. And it's scheduling

[00:45:52]
that needs to be done right on my end. And yeah, but you can always find a solution.

[00:45:58]
I think Cosmo taught me a really naughty lesson on Republic on episode five, because

[00:46:05]
we had such little time to get the music in. And I think he started to do the schedule on his head

[00:46:11]
and realized that I think it's only going to be done via a number of hall nighters. And what he

[00:46:17]
ended up doing and producing without really any time for iteration was so good. And I remember

[00:46:22]
one of the songs called Loose Change. It's something that we still talk about in the studio

[00:46:26]
about how many team members love that song. And I think like, interesting. So in the future,

[00:46:33]
if I just ask Cosmo to produce something. So last minute, it's going to be

[00:46:39]
like all the all the better part is while being aside, obviously.

[00:46:44]
I was going to say like on every game that I work with you, Ryan, I think there is always a

[00:46:49]
moment when you say, come on, we worked on middle year. Yeah, how are we going to be right? Right.

[00:46:57]
Was that now that you say that was that one of the more challenging projects, Metal Gear, or

[00:47:03]
have you has it helped prepare you for even more challenging projects?

[00:47:08]
I often joke about this. I think my skill sets are getting better on every project,

[00:47:16]
but like all of the craziness doesn't really change.

[00:47:21]
Sure. Yeah, Metal Gear was really, really crazy for sure. I think for every, from my perspective,

[00:47:29]
every single person in the audio team like worked around the clock. I mean, not sometimes

[00:47:36]
literally. And I remember this one day, I was about to be behind on the deadline. And I was

[00:47:47]
so exhausted that I went home around midnight and thinking, man, I need to come back in the studio

[00:47:56]
in like a couple of hours. Maybe I can take a nap and then so I took a nap,

[00:48:03]
took the first train to the office and got to the studio around five o'clock. And all of the studio

[00:48:15]
doors closed and everyone was sleeping there. And yeah, I was just going to use that room, but

[00:48:26]
I hate to wake them up. And so I ended up doing other work on my desk.

[00:48:35]
Yeah, it was that crazy. But it got me prepared for another craziness that I got to experience on

[00:48:44]
Halo 4. And I think to this day, I think Halo 4 was the most crazy, schedule-wise. And then I

[00:48:52]
really enjoyed that. But I don't think my physical can handle that anymore.

[00:48:58]
Sure.

[00:48:59]
Yeah, it was, I was in my early 30s, it just kept on going.

[00:49:04]
Well, it seems like you really were able to thrive well under pressure. And I hope that

[00:49:08]
doesn't have to be the case so much anymore. But it does certainly seem like with video games and

[00:49:16]
producing them, there's always going to be a time constraint is what it is what it sounds like.

[00:49:21]
Yeah, I think for every project, even if it's not a video game, there's always that moment.

[00:49:31]
So, but yeah, I guess I kind of got used to the pressure. It's daunting sometimes, but it's really

[00:49:41]
satisfying when you can deliver at the same time. So I kind of got addicted to it. I don't force that

[00:49:50]
to someone that I work with. I try to say get some rest and need to sleep. And I try to tell

[00:49:58]
that to myself as well. Yeah, especially in my 20s, 30s, I just kept on going.

[00:50:06]
Well, let's see. I want to respect your time here. We've got a couple more questions.

[00:50:12]
If you don't mind. One of which is, again, from Warren, when you decided to work for yourself

[00:50:19]
and do freelance, did you notice any impact on your writing process? And he elaborates as in

[00:50:25]
like a personal emotional response that you're getting from your own compositions?

[00:50:31]
Right. Well, your role does change. Being in-house composer, you're not only in charge of music

[00:50:39]
composition, but a lot of probably 50% of your time is spent on implementation and prepping and

[00:50:49]
lots of meetings. And after I left the studio, I have more time purely on composing music.

[00:50:57]
Well, this is really thanks to all my friends who's helping me dealing with all of the other

[00:51:04]
production work. The fact that you have more time to spend on writing, I do feel like I'm

[00:51:11]
challenging myself more, which I think is a great thing. And at the same time, there have been some

[00:51:22]
moments where I was just not satisfied with what I came up with, like given the time I spent.

[00:51:29]
I mean, having a lot of time sometimes works great and sometimes don't for me. And I try out too

[00:51:35]
many things that doesn't work and I get lost sometimes. So when that happens, I just need to

[00:51:41]
do some refreshing. And I'm in the lucky position to be able to do that at the same time, like try

[00:51:46]
out different ideas. And sometimes I get inspiration from those tryouts from different projects.

[00:51:52]
And also, I feel more, you're basically running your own business at this point. So the responsibility

[00:51:59]
feels very, very different. So that sometimes becomes a pressure sometimes. But I generally,

[00:52:05]
I've been enjoying doing my own business and working with many different clients, including Ryan,

[00:52:12]
which I enjoy working very much. And being able to work on many projects, I think there's benefit

[00:52:19]
to that. You get to explore very different styles and different ways of writing, as opposed to when

[00:52:27]
you're in-house, you're writing for just one big franchise for five years. You get to know the style

[00:52:35]
really, really well. But now that I'm outside of the game studio and working on many different

[00:52:42]
projects, I think my language has become wider, I think. Well, that's exciting. That's a great

[00:52:49]
development. Yeah, it's really exciting for me too. And especially when I'm able to notice that

[00:52:57]
difference. Well, I'm glad you're able to have that experience because it sounds like there was a lot

[00:53:03]
of pressure to stay on brand for other people's visions. But as a creative person, I'm sure

[00:53:10]
it's very nice for you to be able to have your outlet and make it your career props for that.

[00:53:16]
I'm sure that can't be easy. Well, it's very satisfying. Yeah, it's really worth it in my view.

[00:53:24]
Well, good. That leads us into our last question, which maybe you just answered,

[00:53:30]
or maybe you have a different answer for us. It's kind of a twofer. What has been the most

[00:53:36]
rewarding experience you've had throughout your career? What are you most proud of from your

[00:53:44]
career up to this point? Well, it's really hard to pick just one title that I'm proud of, but

[00:53:50]
every shipping is really rewarding. And I remember my early days with Metal Gear, the release of MGS4

[00:54:00]
was huge in Japan. And I remember seeing pictures from game shops around Tokyo that there was a huge

[00:54:10]
line in many, many shops. And I remember thinking, wow, this many people are going to play the game

[00:54:17]
and then get it. And then they're going to listen to the music I wrote. And that was surreal. And

[00:54:26]
yeah. And the same thing for Halo games and the same thing for the Iron Man game that I

[00:54:35]
worked on with Ryan, that when my Spotify monthly listener number just went up one digit, I was

[00:54:46]
like, wow. Oh, man. But yeah, it's rewarding to think that something that we create has

[00:54:58]
impact on so many people. Yeah. And so again, I can't pick a single title, but yeah, I'm proud of

[00:55:08]
every shipping. And yeah. Well, good. That's a great answer. That's it for all of the listener

[00:55:15]
specific questions. Warren had just a bit of a comment he wanted me to pass along to you again.

[00:55:21]
He's very sad he can't be here for this episode. He's kind of the music geek of our trio. So

[00:55:30]
he did want to mention that Kazuma, he's a huge fan of your work and really glad to see that you

[00:55:36]
chose to go freelance because he's very eager to hear your work across multiple forms of media.

[00:55:44]
And lastly, I guess just as a fun wrap up, Ryan and I got to talk about this last time, but

[00:55:50]
how has your last year gone? I know everybody's had crazy train things going on, but

[00:55:59]
have you been able to stay on top of everything okay? Stay positive and get through everything?

[00:56:07]
Year four. Well, exactly around this time of the year last year, we were wrapping up Iron Man

[00:56:16]
game, which was fun time. Well, I generally I stayed busy throughout the past year,

[00:56:27]
luckily, and I didn't get to work on any movie projects. I guess that situation has changed

[00:56:38]
quite a bit, I guess. I was both working on video games and Netflix series in the past year.

[00:56:49]
And yeah, thanks to all of the digital media, I was able to continue to do what I love. And

[00:57:00]
one thing that changed was I have this I'm renting this little studio place in

[00:57:07]
Los Angeles. And I didn't get to go there in the past year. I used to use that space when I

[00:57:16]
every time I had a call to do film music. But since I'm primarily working on video game and

[00:57:23]
Netflix, Seattle is where my families are. And so yeah, okay, so it would make more sense to be here.

[00:57:31]
And yeah, it's been great. I've been able to continue writing music. And yeah.

[00:57:41]
Awesome. I'm glad to hear that. Can I be nosy and ask if you are willing and able to tell us the

[00:57:48]
Netflix title you've been working on? The one that came out a couple of years ago is an anime

[00:57:54]
called Ultraman. Another one was Ghost in the Shell, the 3D CG one, SAC2045.

[00:58:05]
Well, that is awesome. Are you an anime fan yourself? This is way off topic.

[00:58:09]
Well, I guess to some extent, yes, I do watch some shows on Netflix. And

[00:58:19]
yeah, not like a huge avid fan. I wouldn't know too many anime. Since I'm getting to work with

[00:58:31]
these directors, I do like their work. And I do like the story that they come up with. So I've

[00:58:40]
checked out all of those anime that they worked on. And now I want to go check out Ultraman.

[00:58:49]
It's really a fun show. There is a second season that's about to be in production. So yeah.

[00:58:54]
Oh, excellent. Well, great. Thank you. Thank you for indulging me in a little bit of

[00:59:01]
just casual conversation there towards the end. It's been really great to get to know you and

[00:59:06]
a little bit about your process and just you as a person. You seem to be a very hardworking,

[00:59:15]
calming presence. And that's important in your industry. So congratulations on putting out so

[00:59:23]
much excellent work without your music. Honestly, I stand by the statement metal gear would not be

[00:59:31]
the same. Well, it's really a teamwork. And I'm glad I got to be a small part of it. Awesome.

[00:59:38]
Well, Ryan, did you have anything else that you wanted to mention?

[00:59:42]
No, I think you did. You and your listeners and your cohorts did a great job

[00:59:47]
pairing lots of good questions. And I got to learn more about Cosma as well, even though

[00:59:51]
I've known each other for I don't know how many years now. Oh, hey, that's great.

[00:59:56]
Well, since 2006, right? So 2006, yeah, since you joined Konami. Oh, wow. Yeah, 15 years.

[01:00:03]
Well, that's great. 15 years. Yeah. I feel very honored to have witnessed some new information

[01:00:10]
being unearthed for you, Ryan. That's great. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Well, again, guys,

[01:00:16]
thank you so much for joining us. You're welcome back any time. I don't know what the plan is for

[01:00:25]
Metal Gear Solid 4 or Peace Walker. I believe Peace Walker would be next in our timeline. So

[01:00:30]
Cosma, if you'd like to come back, we would always be happy to have you. Ryan, you know,

[01:00:35]
you're always welcome. The door is open. Thank you. And yeah, I think that's going to do it for

[01:00:42]
our episode of Metal Gear Monday's Revengeance. Yes, again, gentlemen, thank you so much. It is

[01:00:48]
really a great pleasure to talk to you, Cosma. Thank you very much for having me. I really enjoyed

[01:00:53]
talking to you. Oh, good. Thank you.

[01:01:23]
you